Does HIV exist? An explosive interview

by Jon Rappoport

February 17, 2022

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Before we get to Christine Johnson’s interview, a bit of background.

My first book, AIDS INC., was published in 1988. The research I engaged in then formed a foundation for my recent work in exposing the vast fraud called COVID-19.

In 1987-88, my main question eventually became: does HIV cause AIDS? For months, I had blithely assumed the obvious answer was yes. This created havoc in my investigation, because I was facing contradictions I couldn’t solve.

For example, in parts of Africa, people who were chronically ill and dying obviously needed no push from a new virus. All their “AIDS” conditions and symptoms could be explained by their environment: contaminated water supplies; sewage pumped directly into the drinking water; protein-calorie malnutrition; hunger, starvation; medical treatment with immunosuppressive vaccines and drugs; toxic pesticides; fertile farm land stolen by corporations and governments; wars; extreme poverty. The virus cover story actually obscured all these ongoing crimes.

Finally, in the summer of 1987, I found several researchers who were rejecting the notion that HIV caused AIDS. Their reports were persuasive.

I’m shortcutting a great deal of my 1987-8 investigation here, but once HIV was out of the picture for me, many pieces fell into place. I discovered that, in EVERY group supposedly at “high-risk” for AIDS, their conditions and symptoms could be entirely explained by factors that had nothing to do with a new virus.

AIDS was not one condition. It was an umbrella label, used to re-package a number of immunosuppressive symptoms and create the illusion of a new and unique and single “pandemic.”

Several years after the publication of AIDS INC., I became aware of a quite different emerging debate going on under the surface of research: DOES HIV EXIST?

Was the purported virus ever truly discovered?

And THAT question led to: what is the correct procedure for discovering a new virus?

The following 1997 interview, conducted by brilliant freelance journalist, Christine Johnson, delves into these questions:

How should researchers prove that a particular virus exists? How should they isolate it? What are the correct steps?

These questions, and their answers, reside at the heart of most disease research—and yet, overwhelmingly, doctors never explore them or even consider them.

Johnson interviews Dr. Eleni Papadopulos, “a biophysicist and leader of a group of HIV/AIDS scientists from Perth in Western Australia. Over the past decade and more she and her colleagues have published many scientific papers questioning the HIV/AIDS hypothesis…”

Here I’m publishing and highlighting excerpts from the interview. Technical issues are discussed. Grasping them is not the easiest exercise you’ve ever done, but I believe the serious reader can comprehend the vital essentials.

Christine Johnson: Does HIV cause AIDS?

Eleni Papadopulos: There is no proof that HIV causes AIDS.

CJ: Why not?

EP: For many reasons, but most importantly, because there is no proof that HIV exists.

… CJ: Didn’t Luc Montagnier and Robert Gallo [purportedly the co-discoverers of HIV] isolate HIV back in the early eighties?

EP: No. In the papers published in Science by those two research groups, there is no proof of the isolation of a retrovirus from AIDS patients. [HIV is said to be a retrovirus.]

CJ: They say they did isolate a virus.

EP: Our interpretation of the data differs. To prove the existence of a virus you need to do three things. First, culture cells and find a particle you think might be a virus. Obviously, at the very least, that particle should look like a virus. Second, you have to devise a method to get that particle on its own so you can take it to pieces and analyze precisely what makes it up. Then you need to prove the particle can make faithful copies of itself. In other words, that it can replicate.

CJ: Can’t you just look down a microscope and say there’s a virus in the cultures?

EP: No, you can’t. Not all particles that look like viruses are viruses.

… CJ: My understanding is that high-speed centrifugation is used to produce samples consisting exclusively of objects having the same density, a so-called “density-purified sample.” Electron microscopy is used to see if these density-purified samples consist of objects which all have the same appearance — in which case the sample is an isolate — and if this appearance matches that of a retrovirus, in terms of size, shape, and so forth. If all this is true, then you are three steps into the procedure for obtaining a retroviral isolate. (1) You have an isolate, and the isolate consists of objects with the same (2) density and (3) appearance of a retrovirus. Then you have to examine this isolate further, to see if the objects in it contain reverse transcriptase [an enzyme] and will replicate when placed in new cultures. Only then can you rightfully declare that you have obtained a retroviral isolate.

EP: Exactly. It was discovered that retroviral particles have a physical property which enables them to be separated from other material in cell cultures. That property is their buoyancy, or density, and this was utilized to purify the particles by a process called density gradient centrifugation.

The technology is complicated, but the concept is extremely simple. You prepare a test tube containing a solution of sucrose, ordinary table sugar, made so the solution is light at the top but gradually becomes heavier, or more dense, towards the bottom. Meanwhile, you grow whatever cells you think may contain your retrovirus. If you’re right, retroviral particles will be released from the cells and pass into the culture fluids. When you think everything is ready, you decant a specimen of culture fluids and gently place a drop on top of the sugar solution. Then you spin the test tube at extremely high speeds. This generates tremendous forces, and particles present in that drop of fluid are forced through the sugar solution until they reach a point where their buoyancy prevents them from penetrating any further. In other words, they drift down the density gradient until they reach a spot where their own density is the same as that region of the sugar solution. When they get there they stop, all together. To use virological jargon, that’s where they band. Retroviruses band at a characteristic point. In sucrose solutions they band at a point where the density is 1.16 gm/ml.

That band can then be selectively extracted and photographed with an electron microscope. The picture is called an electron micrograph, or EM. The electron microscope enables particles the size of retroviruses to be seen, and to be characterized by their appearance.

CJ: So, examination with the electron microscope tells you what fish you’ve caught?

EP: Not only that. It’s the only way to know if you’ve caught a fish. Or anything at all.

CJ: Did Montagnier and Gallo do this?

EP: This is one of the many problems. Montagnier and Gallo did use density gradient banding, but for some unknown reason they did not publish any Ems [photos] of the material at 1.16 gm/ml…this is quite puzzling because in 1973 the Pasteur Institute hosted a meeting attended by scientists, some of whom are now amongst the leading HIV experts. At that meeting the method of retroviral isolation was thoroughly discussed, and photographing the 1.16 band of the density gradient was considered absolutely essential.

CJ: But Montagnier and Gallo did publish photographs of virus particles.

EP: No. Montagnier and Gallo published electron micrographs of culture fluids that had not been centrifuged, or even separated from the culture cells, for that matter. These EMs contained, in addition to many other things, including the culture cells and other things that clearly are not retroviruses, a few particles which Montagnier and Gallo claimed are retroviruses, and which all belonged to the same retroviral species, now called HIV. But photographs of unpurified particles don’t prove that those particles are viruses. The existence of HIV was not established by Montagnier and Gallo — or anyone since — using the method presented at the 1973 meeting.

CJ: And what was that method?

EP: All the steps I have just told you. The only scientific method that exists. Culture cells, find a particle, isolate the particle, take it to pieces, find out what’s inside, and then prove those particles are able to make more of the same with the same constituents when they’re added to a culture of uninfected cells.

CJ: So before AIDS came along there was a well-tried method for proving the existence of a retrovirus, but Montagnier and Gallo did not follow this method?

EP: They used some of the techniques, but they did not undertake every step including proving what particles, if any, are in the 1.16 gm/ml band of the density gradient, the density that defines retroviral particles.

CJ: But what about their pictures?

EP: Montagnier’s and Gallo’s electron micrographs…are of entire cell cultures, or of unpurified fluids from cultures…

—end of interview excerpt—

If you grasp the essentials of this discussion, you’ll see there is every reason to doubt the existence of HIV, because the methods for proving its existence were not followed.

Worse yet, it appears that Robert Gallo and Luc Montagnier, the two scientists credited with the discovery of HIV—as well as other elite researchers—were aware they weren’t employing correct methods.

And so…as I’ve reported, there is every reason to doubt and reject the existence of the COVID virus, SARS-CoV-2, since correct large-scale electron microscope studies have never been done. And by large-scale, I mean: attempting to find and photograph the virus in a cohort of, say, 1000 people who are supposed to be “pandemic patients.” I’m NOT talking about one or two electron-microscope photos accompanying a study.

But even that isn’t the end of the story. There is one further potential limiting factor in virus research. I became aware of it about a year ago. Analysis of electron microscope findings is fraught with difficulty and doubt. Are scientists actually looking at what they think they’re looking at in these photos? I refer readers to the work of neurobiologist Harold Hillman, who concluded that researchers were, for the most part, looking at artifacts, not actual cells or entities within cells. Another suppressed controversy.

After more than 30 years of investigating medical research fraud, my general conclusion is, the deeper you go the stranger it gets. Or to put it another way, the worse it gets.

The Matrix Revealed

(To read about Jon’s mega-collection, The Matrix Revealed, click here.)

Jon Rappoport

The author of three explosive collections, THE MATRIX REVEALED, EXIT FROM THE MATRIX, and POWER OUTSIDE THE MATRIX, Jon was a candidate for a US Congressional seat in the 29th District of California. He maintains a consulting practice for private clients, the purpose of which is the expansion of personal creative power. Nominated for a Pulitzer Prize, he has worked as an investigative reporter for 30 years, writing articles on politics, medicine, and health for CBS Healthwatch, LA Weekly, Spin Magazine, Stern, and other newspapers and magazines in the US and Europe. Jon has delivered lectures and seminars on global politics, health, logic, and creative power to audiences around the world. You can sign up for his free NoMoreFakeNews emails here or his free OutsideTheRealityMachine emails here.

36 comments on “Does HIV exist? An explosive interview

  1. Paul says:

    “I went back to my doctor and told him that I was better. Tests showed my T-cell count was improving. I had more energy.

    He said I probably had AIDS dementia, and that’s why I imagined I was getting well.”

    ~ An AIDS patient, Los Angeles, 1988

    Jon Rappoport

    Scandal of the Century


  2. Yoga Chick says:

    Does anyone else find it a bit odd that Dr. Montagnier recently passed away, or am ( just questioning EVERYTHING these days?

    “Montagnier died Tuesday at the American Hospital of Paris in Neuilly-sur-Seine, a western suburb of the capital, the area’s city hall said. No other details have been released.”

    “As the COVID-19 spread across the globe and conspiracy theories flourished, Montagnier was among those behind some of the misinformation about the origins of the coronavirus.” AKA “the truth.”

    “Experts contacted by The Associated Press explained that variants found across the globe began emerging long before vaccines were widely available. They said the evidence suggests new variants evolved as a result of prolonged viral infections in the population and not vaccines, which are designed to prevent such infections.

    Earlier this year, Montagnier delivered a speech at a protest against vaccine certificates in Milan, Italy.

    Montagnier was emeritus professor at the Pasteur Institute and emeritus research director at the CNRS. He received multiple awards, including France’s highest decoration, the Legion of Honor.”

    It just seems really odd to me…

    • michael burns says:

      “In 2009, Montagnier published two independently made, controversial research studies, one of which was entitled “Electromagnetic Signals Are Produced by Aqueous Nanostructures Derived from Bacterial DNA Sequences.”

      Now think YC!

      Vaccine injection… with nanoparticles; graphene and micro machines. The IoT and 5G signal to those nano structures, and…

      Charles Lieber just arrested last year for working with the CCP and giving away Medical tech for…sex drugs and rock and roll, a ban account and a gaggle of little zipper heads to follow you around and genuflect.
      Lieber built nanostructures, and was able to put a series of 9 switches on a single nerve cell…nine switches on a nerve cell, is a language to talk to your body and circumvent the autonomous system of the human body.

      Feds got him locked away as a spy in some dark place. He lost his Harvard lab, the money and all the rub and tug dancing girls.

      Just a bit of basic information, you will have to dig!! Go down the rabbit hole.

      • Alison Wright says:

        Have you looked into IBM’s DNA transistor?

        In addition, all the vaccine digital passport contracts, that I’ve checked, are using IBM Watson AI as the engine. Including New York, Germany and 9 other EU countries (direct contracts), UK (via Entrust) and Australia (via Accenture). A monopoly has been established. PwC is running the UK Cabinet Office Task Force and they have audited IBM since 1923 (link below).

        Doesn’t this describe a cartel which is running a disproportionate response to a non-emergency, since Omicron is a mild coronavirus? The WHO’s Emergency declaration needs to end so that control of health issues is returned to civil servants in the Ministry of Health and out of the direct control of politicians and for-profit consultants.

        • Michael A Stilinovich says:

          I believe the control of health issues lies in each and every individual and never the control of outside entity, such as the state,(including CDC, NIH) employer etc. unless welcomed. A person in a free society should never be discriminated from pursuing a treatment from any discipline, even witchcraft, one determines is in his best interest.
          After all Allopathic medicine is another form of witchcraft hidden behind the smoke and mirrors of factors irrelevant to so called science.

  3. Paul says:

    “Science-media myths shattered; Hope revealed!

    AIDS INC. is a powerful statement about the true cause of AIDS.

    The “cure” follows naturally.”
    “By the time you have finished AIDS INC., you will understand why the AIDS virus is a relatively non-virulent opportunistic interloper, which takes advantage of a man-made situation.

    You will learn the true nature of immune system insults which afflict us all.

    You will understand why the AIDS epidemic, and other epidemics which are sure to follow, will not abate until man changes his situation.

    You will learn the truth,
    you will change your mind, and
    you will set yourself free.”

    ~ Laurence E. Badgley, M.D.
    July, 1988

    ibid, ix-x

    [ending emphasis added,
    for and you and I]

  4. Paul says:

    “The following is a brief exchange between a law professor and a physician.

    It concerns a volunteer subject in an experimental drug study of behavioral control, being conducted at a Maryland prison.

    Law Professor: Does he (the volunteer) understand the effects of the drug?

    Physician: Yes, we explained the whole thing to him.

    Law Professor: Well, what are the effects?

    Physician: We don’t know. That’s what we’re trying to find out.

    Recounted in
    Kind and Usual Punishment,
    by Jessica Mitford
    (Alfred A. Knopf, 1974).

    ibid, vii

  5. Jimmy Jukebox says:


    I am a fairly new subscriber to reading the articles / columns ya write,

    Today’s column Reminded me of the article / column of:

    Robert Willner who in 1994 went on live television in Spain to Stick a needle in an HIV AIDS man and Then Dr. Robert Willner Stuck the needle into himself to Prove That HIV AIDS Can’t Transfer by Blood or Saliva !!!

    Here’s a link to Robert Willner Explains HIV AIDS Fraud Real Good.

    Some articles say Robert Willner died 2 years later from a heart attack.

  6. Paul says:

    “Start over. Say, ‘Boys, we’re not committed to anything but better health. That’s all. No axes to grind. Anything goes, as long as it works and as long as side effects are REALLY negligible. No flag waving. No viral heroics. No posturing. No baloney. Research any damn things you want to. As many as you can. Just improve health.’

    Imagine how much would have to change to effect this sort of revolution.

    Then you know why
    health is
    the biggest
    consumer movement
    in America.”

    ibid, p. 283


    • Siouxma says:

      Easy to do – A good start would be to put all those gazillion $$$$$$$$$ into clean water supplies and effective sewer systems and ban all Monsanto products (Roundup) from agricultural use.

  7. Doug says:

    I wonder what Dr. Judy Micovits thoughts would be about this topic.

    Great job Jon…….as usual!

  8. Paul says:


    For years, critics on the fringes of medicine have pointed to problems with vaccines.

    It is generally acknowledged that, given to people whose immune systems are compromised, they can be immunosuppressive.

    And from time to time, stories have surfaced about vaccines which have been contaminated by extraneous viruses or bacteria, as a result of the manufacturing process.

    We are taught to believe that untoward reactions to vaccines are rare, and that there has never been a question about the overwhelming success of all vaccines at all times, wherever they have been used.

    The recent history of vaccines, though, shows a much more spotty record than one might think. In fact, it raises very disturbing questions about what vaccines do and don’t do to the human body. Here is…”

    ibid, APPENDIX 1, p. 287

  9. Tim says:

    Projectors project. Beware of when they project poisonous ideas for fun and profit.

  10. Eluard says:

    Watch the Terrain film, produced by Dr. Kaufman and directed by Marcellina Cravat. Very well done. It’s on Odysee or Bitchute. You can skip the long discussion groups in the beginning and after the “intermission.” It’s got the usual suspects plus some other great people like Barre Lando. The last section about water was very moving.

    So to Jon’s work on Aids and Christine Johnson’s interview– when you watch Terrain you just feel like, “it’s all over.” Like germ theory is a dream of the past. That viruses are mental bioweapons utilized against us for decades upon decades. And most of all– the root of it is Materialism–we are “bodies” and everything is based in matter. That’s the trap, the con, the mind control.

  11. Roundball Shaman says:

    “Was the purported virus ever truly discovered? And THAT question led to: what is the correct procedure for discovering a new virus?”

    The correct procedure for ‘discovering’ a new virus? Two considerations:

    1. How much does your Company’s bottom-line need a big juicing up?

    2. As a Government, how much more do you want to control your population and further erode their personal freedoms?

    If the answers to these questions are ‘Yes’… you DISCOVER A NEW VIRUS! And you roll out ‘The Experts’ and career grifters to peddle your New Virus to a gullible and fearful public who has yet to learn the fatal flaw of trusting the wrong people way too much or how to use their own heads to discover what is really going on.

    People trust, ‘The Science!’ People trust, ‘The Experts’. And if The Science and The Experts say there’s a new virus, well then… there you are. BINGO. NEW VIRUS! Whether or not there really is one.

    The Public is being played like a fiddle. And the sounds and notes coming out of this are pretty sour and out-of-tune.

    But to the Dark Predator Class who are gleefully playing our strings… it is beautiful music to their twisted ears. And the added tones of cash registers ringing with sounds of ill-gotten billions of dollars adds to their wonderful melody.

    Sour sounds playing during a World-wide, society-wide death march.

  12. Ort says:

    All of the incomparable Dr. Sam Bailey’s videos are worth watching. This new one is relevant, even complementary, to today’s post:

    Electron Microscopy and Unidentified “Viral” Objects

  13. michael burns says:

    Its a complex story that would make the most exquisite novel, without changing the facts or embellishing at all. A movie; a Bond flick par excellence, an Oliver Stone would take all the awards…or maybe not, since it is a fixed game.

    It is called paleobiology…Paleo meaning past. Dealing with ancient forms or conditions. Early and primitive. And when one digs in the past, one finds fossils, they find artefacts!

    The PCR test finds artefacts, fossils.

    Kary Mullis:

    “Finally, I had an opportunity to question one of the giants in HIV and AIDS research, DL Luc Montagnier of the Pasteur Institute, when he gave a talk in San Diego. It would be the last time I would be able to ask my little question without showing anger, and I figured Montagnier would know the answer. So I asked him.

    With a look of condescending puzzlement, Montagnier said, “Why don’t you quote the report from the Centers for Disease Control? ”

    I replied, “It doesn’t really address the issue of whether or not HIV is the probable cause of AIDS, does it?”

    “No,” he admitted, no doubt wondering when I would just go away. He looked for support to the little circle of people around him, but they were all awaiting a more definitive response, like I was.

    “Why don’t you quote the work on SIV [Simian Immunodeficiency Virus]?” the good doctor offered.

    “I read that too, DL Montagnier,” I responded. “What happened to those monkeys didn’t remind me of AIDS. Besides, that paper was just published only a couple of months ago. I’m looking for the original paper where somebody showed that HIV caused AIDS.

    This time, DL Montagnier’s response was to walk quickly away to greet an acquaintance across the room.” — Kary Mullis, Nobel Prize winner in Chemistry (

    Mullis died on August 7, 2019 (74) of complications of [pneumonia] (yeah okay… and the moon’s made of blue cheese)

    Luc Montagnier whose worked the most on the HIV problem, it was lifetime research, and he died this year on February 8th 2022.

    Although aged, Montagnier was far from being, in good health. He had another decade ahead. He made a controversial statement on French television at the beginning of the Covid nonsense about the manipulation of the data in the supposed virus and was just about to make an interesting talk to many of the world’s experts on the topic of Covid, and he died.

    Montagnier was talking about bio-weapons. And he has made an interesting statement on small lifeforms…

    “In 2009, Montagnier published two independently made, controversial research studies, one of which was entitled “Electromagnetic Signals Are Produced by Aqueous Nanostructures Derived from Bacterial DNA Sequences.”

    …a topic well worth chasing, it seems the “FORCE’ actually has been there all along, and does truly exist. Cells communicating with the body, via EMF?
    May the force be with you!

  14. Carolyn Gutman Dey says: Dr. Sam Bailey referring to the years 1973/4 and the meeting where “they” decided on standards for “finding a virus”. Then they didn’t follow those standards…..good video.

  15. Eric Rothdeutsch says:

    What really confuses me is not that HIV doesn’t cause AIDS but why is HIV used in the COVID shots as a molecular clamp? There is some nucleotide sequence called HIV inserted into the shot genome (see the study from India). The HIV clamp is patented WO2018176103 – “CHIMERIC MOLECULES AND USES THEREOF”.

    The HIV sequence must have some disease-causing properties because all the shot ingredients do. And it appears that everyone who took the lethal injection soon will be diagnosed “HIV positive” thereby furthering the con job.

    • michael burns says:

      HIV does not exist!! That’s a fact!

      The term HIV (The human immunodeficiency viruses), viruses! Yes there are more that one now, as they paint all with a 6 inch brush, anything that they wish to explain away, which is caused by careless elite corporations.

      The truth is…that everything has be weaponized against the human race by elites that want a world with 500 million people. They want a technocracy.

      The herd was needed when infrastructure was being built for hundreds of years.
      Now those structures are bult and technology enables them to become a type one civilization. This wish to control the stars! Finite resources possibly are needed to make those next steps forward.

      A cull!

      So, your food is fake and toxic, your environment is toxic in cities and the monoculture grows toxic cereal grains which are already a problem without the added chemicals. Pesticides and what-not on fruits and vegetables.
      Farm animals are toxic with the chemicals added to their foods; injections their whole lives.
      A chicken lives in a cage all it’s life and feed just enough food to make an egg with a thin shell; a poor egg, a nutritionally poor egg that is not capable of being fertilized ever…sick pigs in vast pens… control, control, control.

      Is a picture starting to form!

      And so over-use of antibiotics for decades, as people never finish the 10-14 day regimen — has made organisms stronger and harder to beat…medicine in general is about managing life, not healing anything but maybe the minor affliction or a break or a laceration.

      Organisms that use to live a commensal existence in the human body are now attacking it or have become parasitic…

      The human immune system is vital and very strong and adaptable when young, but when it is attacked by various means. From environment; the food; medicine etc. With overall malnutrition, foods made of fat and sugar, and vitamin and nutrient loss it will break down. I’ve heard it said that cancer is the body’s last ditch effort to cure itself of so many afflictions.
      With a global average from one year to the next of a 90% Vitamin D deficiency (vitamin D should be called a master hormone) and global dimming adding to that fact; the geoengineering of the climate. We have a very serious fucking problem going on many many fronts of human existence. Humans carrying constant inflammation.

      And now vaccines!

      You might call it…death by a thousand cuts. But there is no such thing as HIV.

      • TJ says:

        Death by a thousand cuts! That’s exactly what I’ve been thinking about the whole situation (pretty much as you just described it) for some time now.

  16. Tobi says:

    I’ve seen 3 supposed TEM pictures of Sars-Cov-2 in studies. Guess what, they look VERY different. One has very lanky T shaped hooks on a relatively tiny envelope, the other has little knobs on the surface, yet another may resemble spike models. Tells me enough.

  17. Jack says:


  18. Johnny B Mikel says:

    Thanks so much Jon, you’re truly fighting the Good fight! There are so few that the time to investigate the vaccine industry for what it truly is.

    The research being preformed at Auschwitz wasn’t done by Germany. It was the reigning military-industrial-complex in awesome disgust. It was given life with the Admin of Abe Lincoln and launched across the globe by proxy through Edward Mandell House using his influence over Woodrow Wilson’s Office.

    But even then the industry was centuries old, operating in the shadows of ignorance from the current living standards.

    Thanks again Jon for the refocus and the opportunity to contribute. JB

  19. AJ says:

    From all that I gave read herein it seems that we have been lied to from the very beginning. That is how these “Plandemics” are perpetuated on us. We’re not all geniuses to be able to actually follow and fully understand the science published. If you comprehend and believe any of what has been exposed herein you will never go to a hospital unless you are near death. And stop all doctor visits unless you really trust your personal doctor.

    I receive dozens of ad mail to my residence monthly of magical vitaminss, pain killers, better vision, cures for everything, etc. Many are supposed old world discovers lost in records. And now are the best thing to solve all your physical/ mental problems. And every item is being sold at a discount!!! These remedies have not been scientifically proven to actually cure anything. Read the disclaimer on the bottle. This is the same fake science that Jon exposes every week. Longevity and good health depends on your common sense. Good luck

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