My 1987 White House interview on HIV, with Jim Warner, senior policy analyst

by Jon Rappoport

July 9, 2021

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When I interviewed President Reagan’s policy analyst, Jim Warner, in 1987, there was something I didn’t know: HIV had never been isolated. I did know the virus wasn’t the cause of what was being called AIDS.

Senior White House policy analyst Jim Warner first came to public attention in a November 1987 article in the New York Native. In the story, “The White House Calls the Native About Aids,” publisher Chuck Ortleb wrote: “Warner told me that the White House could be seen as divided into two groups on the issue of AIDS. One group, which he said is in the minority, wants to adopt an ‘Auschwitz model’ by quarantining all those infected with ‘the virus.’ ‘The other group,’ [Warner] said, ‘is incompetent.'”

Warner told me he wasn’t suggesting there was a White House group which was favoring “an Auschwitz model,” but that some high-risk groups might think that was so. My following interview ran in the LA Weekly on December 18, 1987.

WEEKLY: Has anyone at the White House spoken to you about the Native article and what you said in it?

WARNER: I don’t think anyone here knows there was an article in that paper. The government really hasn’t fulfilled its role in providing good information [on AIDS]. We just may not know enough. With AIDS, we’re dealing with a syndrome, not a disease. We may see a patient who has a genetic defect that’s causing his immune deficiency [instead of HIV being the causative agent]. I’m not satisfied we know all we think we do, by any means.

WEEKLY: Is your research on AIDS part of your policy work? Do you make recommendations based on what you find out? Or is it just that you’re absorbed in discovering what’s going on with AIDS?

WARNER: More of the latter than the former. I was asked to look into an Atlantic magazine article about insects and AIDS, and that’s how it started. I decided I wanted to put together a set of questions concerning the HIV virus, so that the answers would suggest its role in AIDS. I would then draft a paper and give it to the people who asked me to look into the subject.

WEEKLY: Do people at the White House get a chance to talk to scientists over at the National Institutes of Health [NIH]? I mean really talk with them, find out what they’re doing, how they’re thinking?

WARNER: There is not much communication [between people at the White House and the scientists at NIH]. I’m probably the only person here who has much interest in it. This year I determined that the [White House] working group on AIDS wasn’t adequate.

WEEKLY: Several university scientists I’ve spoken with have – off the record – criticized what they call “HIV dogma.” They feel if they speak out against the rush to judgment for HIV as the cause of AIDS they may lose money. Grants begin with the assumption that HIV has been proven as the agent of the disease.

WARNER: I’m of a mind that if no other lessons should be required of any university science curriculum, there should be a good survey course in philosophy and a grounding in logic. I’m appalled at the conceit and arrogance [of certain scientists].

WEEKLY: There has never been a performance-evaluation on the results of the NIH. NIH has balked at the idea of evaluating the worth of all their medical research over the last 20 years.

WARNER: That’s a very good idea. I’m going to see what I can do about that.

WEEKLY: The Native article mentioned that you spoke with Dr. Lo, an Army researcher on AIDS. He has his own theory about the disease, that it’s caused by a different virus. According to the Native, you had a problem getting through to him. Did they really tell you you’d have to get an okay from the Surgeon General just to talk to Lo?

WARNER: Yes. You know, although it is an honor to work at the White House, I’m not impressed that being here makes me special. But I pulled rank, and they put me through to Dr. Lo.

WEEKLY: Suppose proof emerged that HIV is not the AIDS virus. How difficult would it be to alter the course of research?

WARNER: It’s very difficult to change people’s minds. It’s not impossible, but there is a head of steam built up.

WEEKLY: What do you do if a government agency, as a whole, has been derelict?

WARNER: It may end up as a brawl. I’d sort of like to finesse that, though, I’d like to avoid a public brawl. It eats up time. It’s difficult when scientists are not open to discussing scientific issues.

WEEKLY: Robert Gallo, Max Essex, people like that, were the field commanders on the NIH war on cancer in the 70’s. They lost that war. So why are they in charge of AIDS research now? It seems odd that we don’t have other people running the show.

WARNER: If ever I’ve been tempted to believe in socialism, science has disabused me of that. These guys [at NIH] assume that it’s their show. They just assume it.

WEEKLY: Peter Duesberg, a distinguished molecular biologist at Berkeley, has said that HIV does not cause AIDS. Have you asked people at NIH what they think, specifically, of his arguments?

WARNER: Yes. I’ve been told that Peter Duesberg’s refutation of HIV has been discounted by the scientific community. I was given no explanation as to why. I was very offended. No evidence was presented to me. Just that Duesberg had been ‘discounted.’ That’s absurd. It’s not a scientific response to dismiss Duesberg as a crank.

WEEKLY: The definition of AIDS has become so broad it’s even stretching the idea of what a syndrome is, never mind a singular disease.

WARNER: A syndrome is a means of trying to understand how symptoms could be linked together. But if you do this in an atmosphere of hysteria, there is no limit to what you can attribute to a syndrome.

WEEKLY: The definition of AIDS in Africa is now becoming synonymous with starvation. They’re saying the three major symptoms are chronic diarrhea, fever, and wasting-away. Weight-loss. It certainly makes a perfect smokescreen for the aspect of hunger which is political – just call it AIDS.

WARNER: I had not considered that. There is a program to make Africa self-sufficient by the year 2000. This could certainly hinder that activity. You know, I was a prisoner of war in Vietnam. I experienced weight-loss of eighty pounds. And when I came home, I was suffering from a form of dysentery that you could call opportunistic. A number of us were. We didn’t have AIDS.

—end of interview—

In November of 1987, I found out that the journal Bio/Technology was going to hold a roundtable workshop in which HIV would be addressed. Peter Duesberg and about a dozen other researchers would attend. The purpose of the roundtable would be to formulate experiments which, once and for all, would show HIV’s role or non-role in AIDS.

I told Jim Warner about the proposed roundtable, and suggested he contact the magazine and sit in on the sessions. He did call, and to everyone’s surprise, suggested that the roundtable be held in his office at the White House.

For the next month, it was on again, off again. There were obviously pressures within the White House against sanctioning such a meeting. About a month before the scheduled January 19th date, stories about it began appearing in several newspapers.

For a brief time, it looked like the White House’s Office of Policy Development was not going to host it, but the Office of Science and Technology Policy was. Then the whole thing fell apart.

The New York Post, on January 7th, 1988, ran a story on Duesberg. The next day, the paper did a follow-up, headlined: U.S. AXES DEBATE ON TRUE CAUSE OF AIDS. After indicating that the White House meeting was canceled, medicine-science editor, Joe Nicholson, relayed a surprising quote from Gary Bauer, head of Reagan’s Office of Policy Development, and Jim Warner’s boss: “People like Dr. Duesberg need to continue to have access to research funds so that if we are heading in the wrong direction, that can be proved.”

Bauer then said he didn’t want the White House to sponsor the meeting because it would impart a political tone to a scientific event.

“I hope they have the debate elsewhere,” he said. “I’ve sort of bristled at the finality with which some have made statements about AIDS and how it is transmitted. When findings run counter to the accepted wisdom, there is a tendency to muzzle or ignore rather than have an open debate.”

The proposed debate never took place.

Given what Jim Warner told me in our 1987 interview, I’m sure, if he were still working for the government in 2021, he would have some choice comments about an NIH scientist who was a major player in the AIDS scene in 1987, and is still hogging the spotlight these days:

Anthony Fauci.

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Jon Rappoport

The author of three explosive collections, THE MATRIX REVEALED, EXIT FROM THE MATRIX, and POWER OUTSIDE THE MATRIX, Jon was a candidate for a US Congressional seat in the 29th District of California. He maintains a consulting practice for private clients, the purpose of which is the expansion of personal creative power. Nominated for a Pulitzer Prize, he has worked as an investigative reporter for 30 years, writing articles on politics, medicine, and health for CBS Healthwatch, LA Weekly, Spin Magazine, Stern, and other newspapers and magazines in the US and Europe. Jon has delivered lectures and seminars on global politics, health, logic, and creative power to audiences around the world. You can sign up for his free NoMoreFakeNews emails here or his free OutsideTheRealityMachine emails here.

19 comments on “My 1987 White House interview on HIV, with Jim Warner, senior policy analyst

  1. Paul says:

    BOOM !

    “What’s past is prologue.”
    ~ Shakespeare (The Tempest)

  2. No More Lies says:

    And now they’re pushing a “Delta Variant”. Are you friggin kidding me!? Oh wait…, naturally healthy people are causing this new, Fake Variant. And those who got poked, are dying AFTER getting the poke! Why is that? Because they passed someone in the hallway who is naturally healthy? OMG! The world has some really stupid puppets in it. The media continues with their Fear Mongering lies because the media is owned and paid for by Pharma. Media reporters should be REMEMBERED AND HELD ACCOUNTABLE for causing death with their lies and fear porn!! THEY are LARGELY responsible.

    keep in mind: THE PUPPET MASTERS(and Bill Gates, Fowlcheeks, CDC, WHO, NIH, etc) ARE RESORTING TO TURNING PEOPLE AGINST EACH OTHER TO COMPLETE THEIR PLAN OF DEPOPULATION! Why isn’t there a REAL news channel that can’t be swayed or intimidated/paid off by big pharma??? JOHN.., START YOUR OWN NEWS CHANNEL 🙂

    Prosecution for them is not moving fast enough!

    • Alan says:

      They control the establishment: the offices, the press, the police, the army, the courts. The prosecution can only begin with the Militia (Second Amendment).

  3. FE says:

    Still, the puppets are still there… Fury? Disgust? Compassion? Perplexity? Is there a cure for any of these?

  4. Mike B says:

    Thanks, Jon.

    There are too many parallels between AIDS and Covid. One I will highlight is the treatment by the international community (read WHO, CDC, etc)of African dissenters, and I am thinking specifically of Thabo Mbeki, South African President and AIDS dissident from 1999-2008, and John Magufuli, President of Tanzania and Covid skeptic until his death this March. First, a quote from Mbeki in April of 2000 about not being able to challenge the AIDS science, then a link to the Magufuli story, which readers of this site may already be aware of.

    “Not long ago, in our own country, people were killed, tortured, imprisoned and prohibited from being quoted in private and in public because the established authority believed that their views were dangerous and discredited. We are now being asked to do precisely the same thing that the racist apartheid tyranny we opposed did, because, it is said, there exists a scientific view that is supported by the majority, against which dissent is prohibited. The scientists we are supposed to put into scientific quarantine include Nobel Prize Winners, Members of Academies of Science and Emeritus Professors of various disciplines of medicine! Scientists, in the name of science, are demanding that we should cooperate with them to freeze scientific discourse on HIV-AIDS at the specific point this discourse had reached in the West in 1984. People who otherwise would fight very hard to defend the critically important rights of freedom of thought and speech occupy, with regard to the HIV-AIDS issue, the frontline in the campaign of intellectual intimidation and terrorism which argues that the only freedom we have is to agree with what they decree to be established scientific truths.” – South African President Thabo Mbeki, April 2000

    Magufuli story:

    Source link to Mbeki quote above:

  5. C. O. Caine says:

    Dr Robert Willner was another who exposed The HIV=AIDS fraud back in the 1990’s

    (to download PDF the link MUST be EXACTLY as typed, or it won’t be found)

  6. Larry C says:

    “The mode of transmission is predetermined, and doesn’t change easily.”

  7. Roundball Shaman says:

    “Given what Jim Warner told me in our 1987 interview, I’m sure, if he were still working for the government in 2021, he would have some choice comments about an NIH scientist who was a major player in the AIDS scene in 1987, and is still hogging the spotlight these days: Anthony Fauci.”

    With today’s transhumanism and ourselves merging with technology in a grand cosmic orgasm of The Great Singularity where human becomes machine and machine becomes human and both together become a new godlike creature… we can only hope that the first human to achieve this exalted state is the one and only great and honorable public servant who knows all and is all and is the face and full manifestation of that great modern Wokester god ‘THE SCIENCE!’… Anthony Fauci. Live forever oh great one so you can go on saving us from ourselves for all eternity.

    And let that lady doctor news conference star associate of yours be the next one to achieve the godhood so we can hear about ‘What The Data Shows!’… forever and ever.

  8. Thanks for raising the HIV-is-not-the-culprit issue again.

    Is actual science being practiced anywhere?

    My sister died of cancer treatments in 1952. The docs cooked and killed her, all of 2 years old, with radiation. Not much has changed in 70 years!

    I remember thinking when I was 16 that researchers must be working from an incorrect hypothesis. I wrote did a high school term paper on DNA and RNA, but felt I didn’t really understand the subject. Got an “A” though. Now I realize that the same seems to be true for science in general: it is not being practiced so we actually don’t know doodly squat.

    • Greg C. says:

      We are living in a real-life version of the movie Idiocracy. Scientists have to sacrifice the thinking part of their mind in order to cram in as much dogma as possible. Then they spend their lives connecting up their beliefs in ways that will attract funding.

    • ed says:

      Cancer is acidosis and pretty much everything else is toxemia!

  9. Rick in Phoenix says:

    BIG NEWS hit the alt media early this past week: from Spain… La Puenta Columna– covid = graphene oxide… good video interview of Ricardo Delgado… this is big big big big big… I’ve been informed Jon’s preparing an article for next week…

  10. Mike B says:

    Question for Jon or whomever else: I’m understanding Mullis’ and others’ contention that HIV has not been proven as a causative factor for AIDS or even isolated, but I do not understand how this theory relates to the Edward Hooper theory (author of The River) which proposes that Oral Polio Vaccine product development testing in the Congo seeded the SIV which became a precursor to HIV which causes AIDS. Are the two theories mutually exclusive? Or are they on the same side? Many thanks to all commenters for good discussion.

    • CK says:

      They are mutually exclusive.

      I used to be open to Hooper’s idea but now I think it’s completely wrong. I now agree fully with Jon that HIV (and other infectious viruses) don’t exist. A now inactive site with lots of info about HIV is:

      The “Fear of the Invisible” (2008) book by Janine Roberts also discusses this.

  11. Siouxma says:

    Fauci and his cronies are lazy bastards, but they are driven. When the Covid19 Scamdemic began with the same fearmongering language spewing from Fauci’s joyful mouth as he’s done for 40+ years with HIV/AIDS, Ebola, Swine Flu, Zika, SARS 2003, the Same Playbook is revealed.

    1) Lies about a Single Cause/Single Source new (but never isolated) virus from nature that spreads and kills quickly.

    2) Lies that there is a test for the new (non-isolated) virus.

    3) Lies that mere presence of the new virus from the test equates to infection/illness

    4) Lies about a positive test should be counted as a new Case as everyone is either pre-symptomatic, asymptomatic, symptomatic with a wide range of unrelated or related medical problems caused by the new (non-isolated) virus.

    Why change the Playbook when it works so well? The right players collude for money, power, control over the lives of everyone. No chance of ever being held accountable as our System of Justice is quite Broken. The Answer: Don’t Cooperate – Don’t make it so dang easy for them. Besides being Lazy Bullies they are also cowards when normal people push back hard.

  12. Toni says:

    Thank you all for the comments to Jon’s article, most helpful additions to it.
    I would like to add (this is 7/24/21) that there is a very interesting interview (in preparation for a giant lawsuit) of Dr. David Martin by Reiner Fuelmich published on Odysee. There are a couple of shortened videos, but please watch the full one – over 1 hour; dives deeply into the patents and ends with Martin’s conclusion: no virus exists.

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